Episode 14: Pursuing Better

Melissa: 0:24

Hello, and welcome back to the pursuing and I'm comfortable podcast. Today. I am speaking with my friend, Brian Miller. Brian Miller is a coach trainer at coach approach ministries and I met Brian back in 2016. When I was training to be a coach. Brian is a pastor. He's no longer serving a church, but he has started a church and he has served churches. And now he coaches for a living. And Brian is always a great person to have a conversation with. He has had so many experiences and has so much wisdom. I invite you today to enjoy our conversation together, where we talk about many different times. When we have had to lean into the difficult stuff and had to overcome them. So today i introduce you to brian miller Hi, Brian, it's great to have you here today. I am thrilled that you are joining me and all the listeners in this podcast. How are you doing today?

Brian: 1:27

I'm doing great. And getting to hang out with you is always a treat. I will not forget. I don't know. It was the first time we hung out down in Nashville and I just remember it was interesting. We went for, you know, it was just breakfast in the morning before I think we were all leaving. And one of the participants obviously. I didn't think he needed to check his hair or anything about himself as he went to breakfast, which I always think, look at Amir just for a minute. And then you though, you're like hanging out with new people. You just met, who are just so wonderful and interesting. Get up like that's Melissa African. To me, she is the. They're the person who just is fascinated by anybody and everybody, and what a great quality that is and how energizing that is. And so, um, just a treat to hang out with

Melissa: 2:19

you today. Thank you, Brian. And Brian's making reference to a conference that I attended back in. What was that? Brian? 2017. You know, it might've been 40 years ago. Give or take, so

Brian: 2:34

yeah, yeah, yeah. When we were kids.

Melissa: 2:38

It was a great conference that I attended in Nashville. Brian is a coach instructor and that conference really brought a lot of stuff together for me and Brian, I think it made me such a better pastor. So thank you for that

Brian: 2:53

interest to get made you a better pastor. I mean, it was about really starting your own business, which is what you're doing here, you know, with your podcast. I'm sure too, but I love it. That it made you a better pastor. As well, just expanded your thinking about who you are and what you can do and how you can do that. Work

Melissa: 3:12

has transformed how I do pastoral care, and I think it really creates a space for people to feel safe and to explore the questions that are in front of them. The big questions in front of them with someone who's going to hold them gently. So I thank you for, uh, for that whole opportunity there. Oh, And today in this podcast, I, I have this notion Brian and correct me if I'm totally wrong, which it happened once before,

Brian: 3:46

but you said you would, and he's married to you. And I'm Joe, of

Melissa: 3:51

course, Brian and I have a fun back and forth as you can see, but I have this notion that comfort is an illusion. That when we choose to stay comfortable, we're not really comfortable that that choice costs us something. And that's at the basis of why I started this podcast to say, you know what, you're not serving yourself when you're trying to quote unquote, stay comfortable. Why not instead use that same thing and flip it and lean into what's uncomfort. And you might overcome it and you can grow and so much more might be possible for.

Brian: 4:33

I totally agree with that premise immediately made me think of some coaches. We were training, um, that, that the coaches were to come alongside pastors and churches to help them, uh, you know, expand the kingdom of. You know what, you're the simple, the simple piece. And I was listening to some of the coaching and it would go like this, you know? Um, here's one step you need to take, how are you doing on that? Oh, man, that just makes me really uncomfortable. And I'm just not, I don't have those connections and I'm not, I don't know if I have those skills and then the coach would do this. They would say, oh yeah, boy, that is hard. I know, I know. Right. Well, I know that feeling. Yeah. Well, you know, stay with. You know, stay with it, see what happens. And I then would tell the coach don't do that. It's uncomfortable. And it's okay that it's uncomfortable. And instead let's bring a little challenge to it and say, wow, that is uncomfortable. What needs to happen in you? What needs to change in you for this to be less? I have a problem. Right? So even the coaches, that was their first response to kind of downplay, you know, the discomfort let's, don't, let's, don't make this conversation uncomfortable and I'm like, no, let's make this conversation a little uncomfortable in a safe place where we can talk about. That's coaching right. That's history

Melissa: 6:07

too. And over 20 years ago, and Brian, you were the pastorate for a long time, too. If we take away people's pain, they can't grow. Right. And you know, that's such an instinct that we have as human beings to take away someone's pain to help them not feel badly. You know, that's a virtuous instinct within us to want to help others. But I think the real help comes in giving them a safe place to experience that pain so that can heal it and move beyond. And you have some experience in that you lost your father.

Brian: 6:52

So in 2016, Um, it was December and my dad was, um, he wasn't having health problems. He was 86 and he wasn't like spry 86. Like you see once in a while, he wasn't Betty White, 86. She just died at 99 and, you know, three quarters, uh, and people didn't seem to know she was gonna die, but, uh, and I didn't know, but my dad had a heart attack and. You know, was gone in minutes, actually in the middle of the night, my mom called me and, um, uh, in the middle of the night and said, you know, Hey, your dad just died. And it caught me off guard middle of the night. And, um, you know, I'm like, oh, she said he had a heart attack. We talked for a few minutes. I said, you, do you want me to come down? It was about an hour away. And I'm the closest child geographically by far. And she said, yeah, so. Um, here's the thing, the Melissa that, that, where the discomfort, I mean, it's, I mean, it's uncomfortable losing your father, but, but I, and I pastored for, you know, 20 years. It's not like I'm not, haven't done funeral after funeral. It's not like I haven't watched people die and there've been the room. But as I was driving down, um, an hour to my parents' house to see my deceased father, I experienced, um, you know, how sometimes you experience a presence maybe of God, or, you know, and, or even if you're thinking about someone, like, I think about you, I can kind of feel your presence. I felt the incredible lack of presence. I felt like there was a hole in the universe. I felt like there was, I just couldn't believe how much I experienced his gone now. Which I don't, I don't remember ever experiencing, even my ma my mom passed away last year. I didn't experience that. That was really uncomfortable. Um, and I'll just stop there. I mean, there's a lot more to the story, but that's where the uncomfortable NUS started is feeling. I don't know how to even say it. The lack of his presence. I was so incredibly aware that he wasn't here. Wow.

Melissa: 9:23

I would imagine that almost stopped you in your tracks. It

Brian: 9:26

was disturbing,

Melissa: 9:29

you know, Brian. We find ourselves in an interesting time. I think I'm the very first person who was commented that about. So feel free to quote me on that. If you like,

Brian: 9:45

it's unprecedented, you should be the first to say this is unprecedented,

Melissa: 9:52

but it is so surreal. Being a pastor at this time. Uh, the church is reeling right now from, we've had a couple of COVID deaths, but we've also had some deaths from other causes of some members that were at the heart of who we are and what we do. And it's just a rapid fire bit of loss for us. And we're really reeling right now in this topic of. Is one that's always timely. I think the last time I checked and you may have some more updated information on this for me, but the mortality rate among humans is a hundred percent and it doesn't get easier. It's not a topic we like to talk about. I mean, talk about uncomfortable, who was to sit around and talk about losing people. And we've been forced to really come face to face with. Lately more so than we usually have.

Brian: 10:55

You're right. That it's both. And we just, I, the church, I, I, I planted a church in 2000 and I left in 2015 and then last October, the pastor took over for me, died of COVID, uh, same age as I am too. Same physically, probably better physical condition. And he died and another person died the church. And then she just were saying, it's interesting. I've done three funerals this year. I don't, I'm not, I don't do funerals anymore. I'm not pastoring in that sense. Um, I've done three this year and they're all three, not COVID. And it's. What is going on here? The loss, the level of loss is a mince right now. And I definitely have heard, uh, smarter people than me say that that feeling that we all have at the root of maybe even being angry is grief. We've all lost so much that we're or grieving, and we're angry. Disturbed and yeah.

Melissa: 12:07

And the way you described that feeling, driving down to your mother, that nothingness, that void boy, that just really is ping pong singing throughout my mind. I think that that's what people. Are also feeling about, uh, about loss that they've experienced, but also about some other stuff. And how do you, well, I was going to ask, how do you feel avoid, but nature hates a vacuum. If there's a void it's going to be filled. So I guess the question might be, how do we choose to fill it? Well,

Brian: 12:52

Yeah, and I'm not. So, so one thing, um, maybe two things I I'd say about this one is that anybody who said anything to me, my dad was 86. He was ready to go, you know, he and I had a great relationship with him. I wasn't, you know, we were fine, but none of that, but anybody that would come through and say to me, Uh, you know, he's in a better place. You'll see him again someday, anything. And just hear, you know, hear how I'm talking about my dad here. I'm not just this isn't my theology. I'm just, but just in generally, what about grief? Don't tell me any of that nonsense. Um, you know, or this pastor who died he's same age, I'm 55. And to say, you know, God had other plans for him. These are the things Melissa that make me want to swear. This is when I just feel the garbage words on my tongue and I have to put them back. I'm just like, no, no. So one, I, I don't, I don't want placated. I don't want somebody to tell me something pithy. That is, you know, I don't, I, so first of all, I don't want any. And second, um, and this is not easy for most people. I think it's easier for me where however, I'm wired. I'm okay to talk about it. I talk about it to some extent. Now. It's interesting. After my dad died, my, my friends were calling my cell phone and I was not, I didn't, I did not want to talk right then. Um, but, but I, you know, I'm pretty quick to, to be able to talk. Things you asked me, can you talk about your dad? Yeah, no, I can talk about my dad. I can talk about all kinds of, I can talk about it. And so it's interesting for me, this emptiness, this volleyed, uh, or this is noise a case. It took root in my. Uh, and again, I, you know, do I believe in all those kinds of things? Not usually, but I'm just like, I can tell you. And I can't even think about exactly where kind of like gut just in my gut. Just there was a no. And it was, it wasn't the loss of my dad and it would not let go. And, um, it's interesting kind of full circle, the pastor who just died that I'm talking about. And I started working out at the Y together, and I don't know how that happened and maybe I think he was he's. I think he even said to me, you know, the way to work out that physicality is physical. And so we worked out for about a year at the Y and he would just, he kind of discipled me, you know, he's a pastor, I'm a pastor, but he was discipling me, but not any kind of, you know, uh, um, you know, I'm the grasshopper, you know, or the, the, the paddle won, you know, he was just loving me and, and work it out with me. And after about a year, it went on. But so go ahead. I can see your ping pong in there.

Melissa: 16:14

Well, Brian, I can't believe you were just talking about how that feeling and that emotion manifested physically in your body, because that's what I've been up to lately. I literally been putting together and promoting a workshop that I'm doing with a friend of mine whose expertise is in movement. And while her expertise will blow you away, by the way, But we are doing a workshop on the connection between our emotions and our bodies and how that energy is also a physicality and working our body. Can you see the hand gestures I'm doing by the way? I think really sells what I'm talking about for sure. But that physicality and the emotions they go together. Yeah. And when you described that feeling in your gut, that knot in your gut, I can relate to that. I often feel that not in my lower back or in my shoulders or lately in my neck. And it usually has to do not with an injury or a fall, but with something I'm feeling. Yeah. And we are embodied spirits and working through those emotions. Really allows our bodies to heal as well. And the coaching you do, I would imagine opens the door for a lot of people to walk into that space.

Brian: 17:46

Oh, for sure.

Melissa: 17:49

So for someone who's not familiar with coaching or being coached, what would you tell them? If they are curious?

Brian: 18:00

Wow. And now it should seem like I have, you know, because of who I am and what I do, that the answer should be simple and easy and clear. And there you go, but it's not going to be, um, you know, just as we talk about this conversation, the first thing I think in, in coaching is that I create a safe presence. And it's just something about you. And there's something about me. That's just natural of people tend to trust us quickly and easily. There's not a lot of, and neither one of us, we could probably brother and sister pretty easily. There's not, there's not, not a slickness to either one of us. There's not a, you know, we're all a little defensive. Real. We're very real. I think people describe me and you both as very real. And so there's a safety and trust that says, and even as I say, you know, I'm not going to tell you some platitude that it's going to help you feel better. I'm not, I think that creates trust of. Okay. Okay. So there's a, so, so coaching is in its simplest, moving from where you are to where you want it. You know, in, uh, in, uh, God's system, it's from where you are to where God wants you to go, which ought to be where you want to go as well at some point. Um, and, and in that safe place with another person, you're able to explore not only the obstacles to getting there external obstacles, but I find actually that almost all the real obstacles are in. I can't imagine myself taking that step. I feel like a fake, I, uh, I sabotage myself on a regular basis. I have expectations of other people who don't seem to be meeting my expectations. Although what I really think about it, they have no idea what my expectations are or their unrealistic expectations or right. There's all these things. And so. You know, we, we slow it down and constantly can see it in slow motion, you know, see yourself. We don't just coach the problem. We coach that. We use the problem as a mirror to see yourself. And so very often one of my first questions, which seems uncomfortable, you know, I was your, is what needs to change about you for this to get better? And you can tell they're first. Change about me. That's not, maybe you weren't listening clearly. I'm not the problem

Melissa: 20:51

articulated this other person over here.

Brian: 20:59

Did you not understand it? You're not follow that people aren't opening the door for me, people aren't letting me in. People are keeping me down. People are tripping me. What needs to change about you. And there may be external things that need to change. However, I can't change any of those things. I can simply change who I am, my mindset, how I'm thinking. Um, and it's, you know, and you, you and I both know, and, but it bears repeating sometimes poaching war. There's a process to it. We, we find out what the problem is. We bring some new awareness to it. We start thinking about how, what steps could be taken. We create some accountability on the back end to make sure you take those actions and, and people progress.

Melissa: 21:48

What I have always appreciated in our conversations, Brian. And when I've received coaching from you, is that. You know, the thing, whatever it is that I'm thinking about that is uncomfortable, or that is an obstacle or an unknown or something I have to grow through or traverse through or figure out whatever that is. It always seems bigger in my mind than what it actually is. That way, why don't we do that to ourselves? You know, when we have a problem with, in a relationship with a friend or a spouse, we tend to grow that to huge proportions. When it may not really even have anything to do with us at all, it might be something that they're going through or experiencing, or if it's in, in a job situation and the skill that we need to learn, we always have this tendency. And I know I'm using some broad spectrum words here, like always, but more than we generally as a human race, have this tendency to make problems bigger than maybe.

Brian: 23:05

Well, I, I initially said the way I made my mark as a coach was I was coaching pastors. And what I taught them, what I would hear is, is a very similar conversation. And it's not true about your church, but it's true about every other church is that the pastor says I could make some real progress. If it wasn't for these dang elders, these elders are holding me back. They won't let me do what I'm supposed to do. You know, whatever it is, I've hit a wall. I had, and what I would do is help them to see typically you haven't hit a wall, you've hit a post. And the good news about that is if you'll just step two feet to your left or to your right, you can go around a post. It's not, it's not a wall. You're just seeing it from one perspective. And, um, you know, I just, I just had an experience where I was. Sharon with some friends he was, or these are people who love me, you know, about I was exposed to COVID and I'm, I'm mad and I'm not sure I'm not mad at the person. I'm just, I'm just mad. I'm irritated. And so it was really at this. I'll try to make this as quick as a kid here, but I, and I'm not a fan of the Enneagram and I'll tell you why. I'm not a fan of the Enneagram is because I'm a five and fives are skeptics. So I love, I love defining myself as why I don't believe in any grandmas because in the Instagram. Um, I think it's ironic. Um, but anyway, so I'm sharing this and then the first guy starts saying, Hey, you know, it's okay. Uh, let's just, let's just, let's just be easy on the anxiousness. You know, there's not a lot we can do about it. Let's just all be okay. And the next guy says, you know, we really need to think. What we can do personally, you know, to be less selfish and, um, you know, whether that's helping people who got it or being careful not to give it. And all of this is making my anxiousness rise. Nobody they're trying to help me, but it's just making me worse, whatever it is, it's worse. And then I began to think. Wait a second. I know for a fact that the first guy's Enneagram nine, which is a peacemaker, and he's just saying, Hey everybody, be okay, let's get rid of the conflict and let's be, let's, don't get uncomfortable with it. You know? And I'm like, I'm not a nine I'm. So, I mean, my five, my five simply says to a nine you're stupid. You're an idiot. You're not. So, all I'm saying is just to cut the shortest. We tend to see things through one lens from one direction, um, and in the present. So I find this in coaching all the time. And if I simply ask the first question in coaching or an early question, you know, what do you want this to look like in six months? They're stunned. They're like, oh, goodness six. I don't know. I don't have any idea. I just want it to be different today. Right? We have no perception. We see everything through one lids and sometimes it's a victim. Lance, I'm always the victim and sometimes you are the victim, but there's some people just always consider themselves. Um, the victim, I'm a five I'm smart. I always think the problem is everybody's an idiot. I always think that that's the problem. The people are just stupid. Um, but that's. That's just my one perspective, right? If people were smarter, they'd put me in charge of everything. That's that's, you know, that's the problem. If people weren't stupid, I would be able to achieve all I want to achieve. They begged me to do it, but it's my perspective. That's that's the least part of it, Melissa.

Melissa: 26:49

You know, it's interesting, um, being the biology nerd that I am, oh, I forgot. I love it. When crises come, they activate that fight or flight response in our brains and all of our energy and resources go to surviving the moment. And we forget that broader thinking that this is a momentary problem in six months, it might not even be. Or if it does, we're going to going to have a much different relationship to it than we do today. And that is so important to keep in front of us when we're up against it, whatever it is and

Brian: 27:28

awareness to. And I'm assuming you're a flight person, but if you're really up against the wall, I bet you're a real hard fight person. Or maybe it's other way around. Most, most red hair people are fight. And I'm seeing you, you are beautiful

Melissa: 27:45

red hair. Let's well, thank you. I am a fight person, but the four we fight. Let's see if we can't nuance this a little bit and just not make it a fight or flight type person.

Brian: 28:00

That's interesting. And so you can go back. So, and I don't know for a fact, but I know that people from the Highlands of Scott. When they came to America, they were looking for mountainous area actually. And at the time they came, this is too nerdy, sorry. In the 1,617 hundreds, we really needed people to go live in the Appalachians because that was the past. That's where we couldn't get through. And so it was great to have people come from the Highlands to go live in the mountains, and then we could create passes for these people. So shepherds and were just, I get angry quick. I mean, I'm not trying to, I mean, it's just, uh, that part of Ireland, Scotland, did they get angry quick and, and, uh, and the Hatfields and McCoys you might be familiar with, these are all Scottish people whose tempers are like flare like that. And people who are descended from these people, which I G I'm assuming I am just get hot. It just, and I never think of myself as a temper, but it's never, I'm never thinking I need to run. I'm all I'm thinking real early, or you want to fight. It's what I bring to it. Right. And it's, I have to, and coaching helps me to stop and have some perspective, some awareness, but I don't think fighting's the right thing. I just always, my brain probably is firing something in there that says, you know, Jack it up, you know, And, and honestly, I've never been in a physical fight in my life. I've never been punched nor punched anybody ever. I've never even come close, but I can feel in myself that immediate and we need it. We need a safe place to be able to back down and say, let me think about this.

Melissa: 29:49

Yeah. And sometimes just helping people. Giving them the space so that they can flip that switch in their minds to say, wait, I don't have to fight. I don't have to run. I can stay here and be safe and navigate through this problem in front of us, the people that listened to this podcast are a lot like you a lot, like me, we have everyday problems. We wonder if we're. In life. Yeah. Am I good enough, mom? My good enough dad at my good enough marriage partner. Am I good enough? Fill in the blank, right. Um, you know, we worry about our kids. Are we raising them? Right? Are we giving them the foundations we need, you know, all of these things, um, how am I going to care for my parents when they need me to step into that role, all of those things. And I know that I tend to overthink.

Brian: 30:47

That's what I do for a living. That's my job. I sit here and overthink things.

Melissa: 30:53

Yeah. And doing that can really grow a small problem into something that seems unmanageable. Right. And one of the goals I have in this podcast is to allow people space, to take a breath and to say, okay, it's hard. It is definitely uncomfort. But what else is it? And maybe leaning into it is the way to go in the way to get through, trying to stay comfortable or avoid it. Well, that comes with the cost. And of course there are exceptions. If, if I answered the phone tomorrow and it's a doctor saying, Hey, we got test results and they are. You know, that's a different kind of situation, but even then we still have choices we can make

Brian: 31:51

there are, and you need a safe place and maybe somebody to help you think that through. Um, for sure. Yeah. And, and from my, you know, I've, I've just, I've always had a faith in Jesus and, and, uh, You know, when I was, uh, five years old, my mom took me to Sunday school. She probably took me to science school before, but I remember five and Zola Wolf was my school's teacher. I just think it's a wonderful name, Zola Wolf. And she told me Jesus was savior and, and, and probably also George Washington was president first president and I'm like, yeah, So I've never, I've had all kinds of problems with the church and wondering, and religiosity and, and all that. But I just have the strong faith that Jesus created a. On purpose. It's a very uncomfortable world. I think there is a curse on the world. I mean, that's from the earliest, you know, not on me in particularly but occurs. Um, and I think part of that curse makes us begin to think I'm the problem, or I'm not up to it or I'm worthless, or I don't have what it takes. And I just, um, it's just been routed to me pretty early. I don't believe that I don't believe that about myself. I, I mean, Right at the same time, but I don't believe that for anybody. So anybody listening today, I just want to tell you, you are not the problem. You are, you know, you, you may have made choices that have created problems, but you're not the problem. Um, you're not cursed. You're not worthless. You're not helpless. There are things you can do that can, uh, help you navigate better. Um, and just, just first of all, knowing that is held. Um, right. I'm not just, otherwise I can just get stuck. I can't move. I can't act sometimes we need other people, but just realizing now I'm uh, I'm okay. Um, I'm made an image of God. And even though there's some brokenness to that, um, uh, I have, I have the ability to, to move to act

Melissa: 34:03

life always wins. Life finds a way. You know, I just had this flash in my head, Jeff Goldblum's character and Jurassic park. The guy Dr. Hammond maybe is the name of the guy. Well, the main character who has created this drastic park, and he's talking about all the safeguards where there's no way this can end badly because these things in place and Jeff Goldbloom says, life will find a way. Yeah, life will find a way and it, and it does sometimes on this side of eternity and sometimes on the other, but life will find a way. And if we look for that life breaking through, man, we can jump on that and good things can happen.

Brian: 34:49

That's a great theme. I didn't even think about the theme of that movie. You know, you think it think it's like real life. Life will find a way with the dinosaurs. We'll find a way to thrive, but when the humans are faced with the dinosaurs, not everybody lives spoiler. Um, but they find a way they find a way to get past the dinosaurs and to get out of the, you know, life finds a way, oh, kickabout

Melissa: 35:15

leaning into the uncomfortable. If T-Rex or a velociraptor feels like that. And.

Brian: 35:24

Yeah, that's a crate. I think that's the point is that there's life in me. As long as there's life in me. There's chance. There's opportunity.

Melissa: 35:36

Absolutely. Well, Brian, I'm going to let you have the last word. If there any last words I know as a coach, you're not necessarily an advice giver, but if you had that opportunity and wanted to. Offer some advice or some final words, here's your chance?

Brian: 35:57

Well, let me, let me share this, this a little, I don't know if it's a story, but we'll call it a story. So, so want to end that I'm now doing an interim pastor and there's been some deaths in that church. And so I've got a couple of widows and they're not, they're not even older widows. I think widows, I. Older, senior citizens. These are not senior citizens. And sometimes they talk to me about the struggle, you know, of losing their spouse and that they're having trouble, you know, whatever they're doing, they have trouble. And they, and I say, I, I just repeat to them every time here are my expectations, losing a spouse, uh, early in your life. Um, get up most days. And that's my expectation for you. Yeah. I'd like to see you again. Most days, and that makes it, that changes the whole perspective right there. Like I know I'm not taking care of everything I need to be taken care of. And I'm like, if I were you and your situation, my goal would be to get up most days, not every day, some days I'm just staying right in bed, but most days I'll get up and you can just see, I think in their eyes themselves. And is so helpful. It is uncomfortable and you're not pretending it's not uncomfortable. Um, you're saying it is uncomfortable and it's going to take, and that time helps probably no matter what, but, but particularly when small processes time does help, um, particularly with grief and loss. So I don't know if that's helpful. I hope. I

Melissa: 37:39

love that statement. There's so much hope and so much grace in that same statement, get up. Most days love that many use that I gave you permission to use. The it's an interesting time. We're in may I have permission to be,

Brian: 37:55

you can use unprecedented. You can use that phrase. Uh, yeah, absolutely. Melissa, I would be honored if you used anything I said or taught.

Melissa: 38:06

Thanks, Brian, it's always fun to catch up with you and I appreciate you sharing all the wisdom you've garnered over the years here, and I hope things continue to go well for you and I look forward to, oh, before we go, I do want to talk about coach approach, ministries, love coach approach, ministries. This is the, I don't know what you call it. The school, the academy, the institution. Earth that shifting that Brian and your partner, Chad hall have put together, but it trains coaches. I am one of them, but it doesn't just train coaches. It trains coaches from a Christian perspective. Yes. And love what you guys.

Brian: 38:53

And so what we say is if you're a person that people just kind of naturally come to maybe to, you know, to help solve problem or help them, um, you know, move forward in their life. But you're finding that you just don't have the right tools to really help them the way you'd like to that coaching. Uh, I mean, you can take coaching as far as you want. You can do it for a little. Which is what I do as well. Um, but you can also just use it to help people move forward. There are some basic skills, you know, our first class, the 5 0 1 class, which is foundations in Christian coaching, which we have one starting in February of 22, depending on when you're listening to this. Um, uh, and, and I just think it's a great understanding of how to process a conversation, how to make a conversation. Um, go somewhere and I, and I'm, I love that part of it. I hate conversations that go nowhere about, I hate conversations about nothing. I hate that. Just despise it. That's who I am. That's my personality. But if you were, if you're interested, go to coach approach ministries, it's all one word.org and you can, you can find it.

Melissa: 40:10

Excellent coach approach ministries.org, and that will be included in the show notes. You guys also do a podcast.

Brian: 40:20

Podcast, very cleverly named

Melissa: 40:25

and I'll have links for both of those in the show notes. So. All right, Brian. Thanks. Thank you so much. Let

Brian: 40:30

me slip it. Let me say Melissa Adkin is just one of my favorite people. You are lying. And capsulated. I mean, there's just, you need some kind of thicker skin. So the life doesn't just keep oozing and bursting out of you. You are an inspiration, you are encouraging, you know, anybody that gets involved with you is going to do. They're going to be, have more joy. They they're going to move forward. I mean, anybody just in your presence, let alone that you were trained by one of the premier Christian coaching schools in the world. Coach approach,

Melissa: 41:10

ministries, uh, ministries. Thank you for that, Brian. All right.